The true story behind the lyrics to Smells Like Teen Spirit

Cobain wrote some good stuff , but he did not write the lyrics to his two biggest hits Come As You Are and Smells Like Teen Spirit.

The real writer has come forward with the true story behind the songs.

The lyrics were given to Cobain in Banff, when Cobain was traveling with the Melvins as a roadie to Calgary, Alberta in 1986. Cobain formed Nirvana about a year after being given the lyrics.

for the full story,

See this thread:

http://www.topix.com/forum/who/nirvana/TAP8NSTHB7L2O1R6T

Unk - have you submitted this as Songfacts? If not, please do so. This is the stuff we love to get!

We can't exactly put things that aren't proven to be true on Songfacts. The only evidence supporting that is the claims of the guy who says he wrote it.

^ agreed, we can't simply post some story without any proof...

the official copyright on Nevermind states "all songs written by Kurt Cobain" (except 'Smells like Teen Spirit', which was written by Cobain, Novoselic, Grohl.)

I think especially when it comes to such famous songs, there's no 'real' writer who would like to miss out on the prestige and royalties without a lawsuit.

you can't understand the lyrics anyway

But everyone knows them

We both have a point, okay?

Ok

KC was a bit of plagiarist, but not as much as Noel... you'd have better luck accusing Oasis of ripping you off.

Oh , I can believe it - suspect as the original poster is, or their intentions. Preface it with ' It has been claimed that ... , though unproven.' -or don't , and save yourself a lot of trouble .

I think it is a lot of crap , by a depressed star-struck fan , however . Wouldn't you try to get this news out there fairly soon after the song became a hit if you recognized it as your work ?

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you can't understand the lyrics anyway

A denial ... ?!

you should read the thread. It explains what happened and why he is not after any claim to copyright. He gave the lyrics away voluntarily, and he admits that, and he is making no legal claim to it. He is just trying to track down some one to confirm that Cobain was in Banff in the spring of '86.

He didn't recognize the lyrics as his until years later when the lyrics became available on the internet.

AT least read the thread before asking questions like that.

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you should read the thread. It explains what happened and why he is not after any claim to copyright. He gave the lyrics away voluntarily, and he admits that, and he is making no legal claim to it. He is just trying to track down some one to confirm that Cobain was in Banff in the spring of '86.

That is exactly what I was going to say .... if what this person writes is the truth, he voluntarily gave the lyrics away, without even being asked to. And honestly, it makes for an interesting story, which may well be true, but he really does need some sort of unbiased outside confirmation of details.

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you should read the thread. It explains what happened and why he is not after any claim to copyright. He gave the lyrics away voluntarily, and he admits that, and he is making no legal claim to it. He is just trying to track down some one to confirm that Cobain was in Banff in the spring of '86.

I read a bit more now (don't have the time to actually read through 550 pages)

but I still don't believe him at all...

example:

when he explains how he wrote the song 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' (SLTS) - before he gave it to Cobain, he writes:

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When I got out of the shower, I decided to give the song away, and give up singing forever, and I wrote another short verse on the back of the SLTS paper. I thought that anyone trying to do SMLTS would need more ammunition, something to bolster them, a bit of a combined peace treaty and call for support.

yet later when he's asked "Why did you give the name "Smells like teen Spirit" to this song? "

he replies:

"Cobain chose the title of the song himself, and the title that he chose had nothing to do with the content of the song.

(likely another effort at concealing it, imo)"

and another thing:

he's spending years to research whether anyone can confirm his story, but he never even tries to contact Krist Novoselic or The Melvins?

because:

"I would have done it long ago, but frankly I am not sure if krist or even the Melvins would be at all interested in the truth being known."

the interpretation of the lyrics is very generic, I would have done them the same, and while the songs are supposed to be very personal, he continues to use 3rd person when writing about them.

it all just doesn't make much sense to me...

I think it is true. He called it the 'SLTS paper'

only out of convenience , and explained that later.

He said that he did not even so much as initial the lyrics or give them a title because initialing it would have given too much ownership to the lyrics ,

and titling would have been the final act of authorship/ownership, and he wanted Cobain to receive it as an anonymous gift and be inspired to record it.

There is no reason for this guy to cook up some false story like this, and so many of the other facts support it, for example that the Melvins were in Alberta right at the time in question, and Cobain hated SLTS and CAYA till the day he died, choosing only mocking versions of those two songs on the live hits DVD that Cobain himself

compiled and championed as a project before his death. The 'Live! Tonight! Sold Out! DVD was released after Cobain's death, but it is a known fact that Cobain did most of the work in conceptualizing it, planning it, and choosing the material footage for it in the months before his death , but never lived to complete it and release it. Nirvana released it after he died, and said that they completed the project 'true to Cobain's vision' , in other words , they avoided the temptation to profit again on their two biggest hits because Cobain hated those songs and had planned to use mocking versions of them, and though NIrvana could have monkeyed with the project , and use better live versions of SLTS and CAYA in order to please the fans, sell more copies of it, and make more money, they chose not to, and instead suffered the wrath of critics who panned it as disappointing and an affront to fans who had liked those two songs. I think there could be a clue in the title 'Live Tonight Sold Out!' too . Cobain may be calling attention to the fact that he 'sold out', ie: sold two songs that were not his , and it made him feel like mocking those songs for posterity, should the truth ever come out one day.

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and another thing:

he's spending years to research whether anyone can confirm his story, but he never even tries to contact Krist Novoselic or The Melvins?

He said that he tried to find contact information for the Melvins and was having difficulty, and later began to wonder if it would be a wise move to ask them until he had done more research on it his own. He doesn't want to rush or force them into making a statement on it until he is well prepared with enough research of his own that they cannot just laugh him off and cut off all

further discussion of the topic. I think he is wise to take that approach, because the first inclination of those who are benefiting from their proximity to Cobain might be to cover up the truth, unless there were a damn good reason to admit to the truth. Also, their memories might not even be that great, (it was twenty years ago, and they were smoking and drinking etc. back then) so he was smart to wait until he had solid proof of the Melvins playing Calgary that spring, (which he has now posted). So now their memories are less likely to fail them, and it is also going to be a lot more difficult for them to inadvertantly get it wrong (or lie), and say Cobain was not there.

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the interpretation of the lyrics is very generic, I would have done them the same, and while the songs are supposed to be very personal, he continues to use 3rd person when writing about them.

splitting hairs on something that is just a matter of style, as I see it. He is a skilled writer, and he wanted the meaning of the lyrics to be as clearly communicated as possible,

with a view to the fact that the lyrics were written twenty years ago, and he was recounting what he had been thinking back then when he wrote them. He refers to himself as 'the writer', possibly because he wanted it clear that these thought processes occurred back then, at the time that songs were written, and were not being created 'on the spot', by the author of the thread. In doing it that way, he avoided any confusion as to the time frame that the thoughts were occurring.

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it all just doesn't make much sense to me...

the more of the thread that you read, you find that more and more questions are raised and ably answered, plus you get to evaluate the myriad 'gut reactions' of rabid Cobain fans , his rational responses, and all the other circumstantial evidence that is there. It is interesting stuff.

I have read a significant portion of that thread, including all of the first 100 or so posts. There are a few simple reasons why I do not believe Trumpelstilt:

- If Cobain hated SLTS, why did he change the lyrics (from the original live perfomances to the album version) to make them more like the version Trumpelstilt claims to have written? Trumpelstilt says Cobain actually forgot the lyrics or changed the lyrics at the last minute before the original live performances, which is very hard to believe. The suggestion that Cobain borrowed the lyrics, tried to rewrite the song, performed the song with his rewritten lyrics, then gradually rewrote the song again to make it more like the original lyrics, is absolutely ludicrous. On the other hand, this part of the story makes perfect sense if you assume Cobain actually wrote the song himself.

- He claims it took him a long time to recognise that the songs were his own, and that he has a poor memory of everything that happened in the late 80s/early 90s. Now he claims he remembers everything about the songs, and knows the exact meaning of the lyrics. This does not make any sense. Besides, why should we trust the memories of someone who admits he has a very bad memory?

- As far as I have seen, he has not provided any evidence regarding his identity. If he really does want to be revealed as the writer of the songs, he should at least prove that he is the age he claims to be.

- Trumpelstilt claims to have attempted to contact members of The Melvins (which he could very easily do through MySpace, MelvinsWiki, themelvins.net, etc etc), yet he hasn't given any real evidence that he has even attempted to contact them. The least he could do is post a message that he has sent to The Melvins.

- Trumpelstilt has spend a huge amount of time and effort defending his claims (about two years so far, making regular posts on the thread for that entire time), he has clear motives for making these claims, and his claims are intended to present himself as an extraordinarily talented and notable person. He has also made several racist, sexist and homophobic remarks on other websites, including YouTube. All of these are classic symptoms of Pseudologia Fantastica, or pathological lying as it is also known. If he isn't a pathological liar, it is extremely unlikely that he would stay silent about it for 21 years, then suddenly commit a huge amount of time and effort to his cause. His explanation as to why he did this doesn't make sense either.

Long story short, the story of Cobain writing the song makes perfect sense, and Trumpelstilt's story has more holes in it than a piece of Swiss cheese. I know which one I believe in.

Well presented ,C.S . !

What I can believe , from his description , is working at the Banff Springs Hotel at some point and perhaps meeting Cobain or members of the band/management /hangers on . He may have tried to submit some work of his to the band ( I'm sure it is not an infrequent practice in the experience of most bands ) , but whether or not it was these songs , or anything resembling them , is anyone's guess .

This hotel is also very pricey , and it is doubtful that any band that hadn't made it yet would be staying there ( and with their entourage yet ) for any length of time. It is also very conservative and wouldn't likely be hosting them as an act in the hotel, imo, before they had made some name for themselves. It's unlikely even that the Melvins would be there for long at that time .

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We can't exactly put things that aren't proven to be true on Songfacts.

perish that thought! That's not at all what I was getting at.

Of course the staff at SF will check into submittal thoroughly before putting it up. That said, this could certainly be used as one song fact regarding someone claiming to have written it - not as a song fact that states he did.

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Well presented ,C.S . !

What I can believe , from his description , is working at the Banff Springs Hotel at some point and perhaps meeting Cobain or members of the band/management /hangers on . He may have tried to submit some work of his to the band ( I'm sure it is not an infrequent practice in the experience of most bands ) , but whether or not it was these songs , or anything resembling them , is anyone's guess .

This hotel is also very pricey , and it is doubtful that any band that hadn't made it yet would be staying there ( and with their entourage yet ) for any length of time. It is also very conservative and wouldn't likely be hosting them as an act in the hotel, imo, before they had made some name for themselves. It's unlikely even that the Melvins would be there for long at that time .

Read the thread again. They were staying for free with some waitresses from the hotel.

Cobain and a friend from the Melvins (likely Buzz Osbourne) would have been staying for free in the room of a staff member/servant in the STAFF annex of the hotel, in a room described as a tiny hovel. They would not even have appeared as some type of 'band' or entity in those days, probably hitchhiking back from Calgary to Seattle after doing their 'gigs' in Alberta, meeting with some aboriginal weed dealer, and picking up a shipment of drugs to courier back through the Okanagan valley to their connection on Osoyoos Lake (a notorious smuggling point for potent B.C. bud and Vietnamese hash to cross the border point over the lake (Osoyoos Lake borders B.C. and Washington) The whole N.W. coast 'punk' scene was centered around giving obscure teen acts an excuse to travel and courier drugs from the west coast inland (mostly Portland) , and from Canada into the U.S. Many of the recruited teens were sexually abused young offenders who'd been in and out of the system, many of them trained to turn tricks as gay male hustlers both in and out of jail . Look up the origin of the term 'punk', and that is what you find. 'Punk' was jail slang for the young boy inmates who were forced to perform sexual favors in jail for the older and more dangerous inmates who controlled things. These kids were routinely drug addicted couriers/dealers in and out of jail on drug offences, who would often turn tricks as hustlers to feed their drug addictions during times of freedom before eventually being returned back to jail on another drug charge. The smuggling networks use minors and youths because the sentences tend to be lighter for young people with no extensive criminal records. These kids

are willing to take the risk, due to poverty, drug addiction, and having no criminal background to weigh them down if caught.

Back then the Melvins were not much more than a noise band of teens/youths who could barely play the guitar.

I see no reason to disbelieve the story of the origin of the lyrics as it was presented.

I believe we are speaking with Trumplestilt , no ?

Your description of went on does ring true as far as drugs , the stashing of friends in staff quarters , the psychological make-up of those involved , etc . - but to land the big fish , you are still coming up empty . This is why I can believe that what went on , went on only somewhat as stated . However , the proof of the claim to the authoring the lyrics still eludes you .

Can you not see why , though you have offered so many peripheral details , the main claim is doubtful at best ? It's as though by offering so many true , though secondary or unrelated facts , we have to buy your major claim as well .

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I have read a significant portion of that thread, including all of the first 100 or so posts. There are a few simple reasons why I do not believe Trumpelstilt:

- If Cobain hated SLTS, why did he change the lyrics (from the original live perfomances to the album version) to make them more like the version Trumpelstilt claims to have written? Trumpelstilt says Cobain actually forgot the lyrics or changed the lyrics at the last minute before the original live performances, which is very hard to believe. The suggestion that Cobain borrowed the lyrics, tried to rewrite the song, performed the song with his rewritten lyrics, then gradually rewrote the song again to make it more like the original lyrics, is absolutely ludicrous. On the other hand, this part of the story makes perfect sense if you assume Cobain actually wrote the song himself.

- He claims it took him a long time to recognise that the songs were his own, and that he has a poor memory of everything that happened in the late 80s/early 90s. Now he claims he remembers everything about the songs, and knows the exact meaning of the lyrics. This does not make any sense. Besides, why should we trust the memories of someone who admits he has a very bad memory?

- As far as I have seen, he has not provided any evidence regarding his identity. If he really does want to be revealed as the writer of the songs, he should at least prove that he is the age he claims to be.

- Trumpelstilt claims to have attempted to contact members of The Melvins (which he could very easily do through MySpace, MelvinsWiki, themelvins.net, etc etc), yet he hasn't given any real evidence that he has even attempted to contact them. The least he could do is post a message that he has sent to The Melvins.

.

your logic is very hard to follow, He has explained what happened , how he had trouble finding the Melvins online back then, and didn't want to contact the Melvins until he had more proof to present them , etc.

Also, you seem determined to get confused about what was written about Cobain's rewrite.

Here it is again:

Cobain loved the song at first, put it to the music suggested to him (More than a Feeling, by Boston) , but decided not to record it on the album 'Bleach' because he wanted to do his own material, and because he knew the lyrics would attract too much controversy for a fledgling act to handle. He liked the music that he'd written for it, and played around with using that music with new lyrics of his own, and tried to rewrite new lyrics on scraps of paper. ( Courtney Love later cobbled these scraps of paper, notebooks, etc., together and claimed it was a 'journal' , which was really, mostly, just Courtney's having scraped together his papers from his drawers to make a buck on his name)

According to the thread , Cobain jotted some ideas for new lyrics to SLTS on a scrap of paper, which he wanted to try to use instead of the original lyrics, while keeping the new music and some of the best parts of the song. He played the disastrous results live a couple of times, and then scrapped the idea. After Bleach, once he was more established, he was offered a big contract to record a follow up album to Bleach, needed new material fast , and decided to record the controversial version of SLTS almost exactly as it had been given to him. (probably thought that the controversial lyrics would attract some attention to him, enough to make him famous, and decided to record it, but at the last minute may have garbled as much of the lyrics as he could to hide it from the original writer) He later grew to hate the song, because he was sick of being asked about why he 'wrote' it, when he did not write it at all, and he was tired of someone else's lyrics stealing his thunder every night. Also, the controversial nature of the lyrics likely irritated him, though he knew that most people could not even hear them, and finally he probably hated the feeling of dread it gave him every night that maybe the secret would get out.

So , as far as what someone ( or you ) have claimed which has now become popular folklore or an urban legend in and around Banff, maybe , you still do not know for certain how / why / or to what extent these lyrics/music were ever used- if ever - only that the sentiments of the author may have had a different intent , or perhaps even the very same . Were you or this claimant ever to make a legal claim - even for no monetary payout , but just recognition - I'm sure they would have the case quickly dismissed, lacking proof .

I will agree with you this far : some submissions by fans or songwriters are taken in to the cannon of groups , but they are usually careful enough to make them unrecognizable or to give credit to those who did help - however discreet . This is not the case in these songs, and you need more than background information and details ( which are themselves borderline fictional ) to make it so .

stick to what the thread states. There is no planned legal proceeding. There is only someone who wrote some lyrics which became famous trying to establish the truth. He also states that he thinks it important for people to have the full story, because it is part of the puzzle of what people thought of as Cobain's 'eccentric' behavior surrounding those songs and why he eventually outright rejected the credit given him for them.

There are people who care about such things, and of course he would want some part of the truth at least on record.

The man was on heroin and disliked the public eye to start with . I doubt whether he knew or cared what happened even the day before , let alone a few tears back .

Again , I only bring up legal proceedings - not in the sense of getting some royalties - but in proving his claim to whatever end this would satisfy him .

I think what you have presented is very interesting , but much like a UFO sighting without evidence , is either to be believed or not depending on one's inclination . No harm done either way .

Welcome to Songfacts , by the way .